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Rattles an empty cup and begs... - "You didn't hear about the polar bear?"
August 9th, 2005
10:19 pm

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Rattles an empty cup and begs...
Help a poor HP fan who missed out on the discussion? I was delayed in reading it, and now I can't go back far enough in my f-list to search out all of those discussions (that I skipped because of spoilers).

If you had something to say, I'd love to read it! Link me to wherever you commented.

Also, there were some rather good points made in a recent Entertainment Weekly; if they haven't been widely disseminated, I was thinking of typing them up here. Very interesting...

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From:onecheekyhobbit
Date:August 10th, 2005 04:37 am (UTC)
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Snape is still good.
D. wouldn't beg for his life.
OMG R/Tonks!

Woot Harry Ginny
Woot Ron Her.
Woot... uh, Spiderman ending.

UN WOOT giant horsey bird saving Harry's skin at the end.

WOOT new super cool Draco with slash action.

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From:rosamundeb
Date:August 10th, 2005 01:21 pm (UTC)
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Agreed... the reason that Dumbledore gave for why he knew Snape was still "good" was not the full story; there's another reason why that we will learn in the last book, I believe. And, yes - just as Dumbledore made Harry promise to do whatever he asked - WHATEVER it was - in that last adventure, I believe he did the same with Snape, and he was pleading with Snape to remember that, and kill him. Apparantly he had ordered Snape to kill him if a certain situation occurred - perhaps even to keep Snape's double agent identity.

But, damn... still hard to believe ANYbody could be a double agent for that long, especially when they're basically despised by everybody on the "good" side!

And yay for all the pairings as well. *G*
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From:onecheekyhobbit
Date:August 10th, 2005 08:34 pm (UTC)
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Yeah, or we know that both Snape and D. are really good at ocuplancy *or however you spell it* so he may have been talking to Snape. Or he could be trying to save Draco as well...
K
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From:rosamundeb
Date:August 10th, 2005 08:54 pm (UTC)
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Occlumency? Yes... quiet moments pointed out the Unbreakable Vow that Snape took to protect Draco... but, I don't recall Draco being in danger.
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From:onecheekyhobbit
Date:August 10th, 2005 09:27 pm (UTC)
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Well it was said that if Draco didn't kill D, the death eaters might kill him or something, that voldy didn't care about him. Yet another reason I think Snape was trying to rush Draco away.

I just think D. didn't want Draco to kill, because he knew he was not up to it. If that's the case, Draco may turn good yet, which I would really like, because that would also mean that Snape (WHO IS GOOD) has a younger person who is like him... I dunno... I would just like for them to both be good in the end.
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From:rosamundeb
Date:August 10th, 2005 10:02 pm (UTC)
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I agree on your second set of points... although, let's face it, Draco's been such a coward, you have to wonder if he has it in him.

But where does this happen: "it was said that if Draco didn't kill D, the death eaters might kill him or something, that voldy didn't care about him." You mean people discussing it speculated that, or it's in the book? Did somebody say "kill Dumbledore or we'll kill you", at some time? I don't recall. (and I gave my book away - *G*)
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From:onecheekyhobbit
Date:August 12th, 2005 04:57 am (UTC)
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No, it was never said, kill or die, but it was said that voldermort didn't care about the boy's life, so you have the feeling that if he didn't prove himself there would be a punishment.

And punishment with voldy is never sweet.
K
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From:rosamundeb
Date:August 12th, 2005 02:08 pm (UTC)
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Truuuue.

Didn't it seem a bit strange, though, that one of the other death eaters didn't just zap him?

Or did they assume that Dumbledore's so powerful, that there might be a backlash on the person who did it... so they were afraid to?
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From:onecheekyhobbit
Date:August 13th, 2005 05:44 am (UTC)
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I dunno... I need to read it again to be honest, but I have so many others I want to read just now... I will though I'll try to get it done when School first starts.
K
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From:rosamundeb
Date:August 13th, 2005 01:45 pm (UTC)
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Ditto... got others I want to start!
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From:onecheekyhobbit
Date:August 13th, 2005 11:42 pm (UTC)
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Like what?
K
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From:rosamundeb
Date:August 14th, 2005 12:56 am (UTC)
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Re-reading Goblet of Fire... I don't remember much of it, since I read it when I was on vacation at the time.

Continuing to re-read O'Brian's M&C books

and about a ton of others. *G*
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From:aeb
Date:August 13th, 2005 05:37 am (UTC)
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I hope you don't mind a friend-of-a-friend jumping in here, but no matter what any characters said, I don't think Snape is precisely good or precisely evil. If this were the kind of story where the good guys wear white hats and the bad guys black, I think Snape's hat would be distinctly grey.

I don't anybody as power-hungry, vengeful, and just plain not-nice can really be good. He just doesn't fit my understanding of the definition of that word. {wry smile}

However, he has limits less penetrable than granite that make him a distinct improvement on Voldemort. {amused smile} Yes he wants power, but there are things he won't do for more, no matter what. At the top of that admittedly short is list call another man "master." Not much lower is accept the services of one who would call him that.

The first reason is why I think we really can trust him to fight Voldemort. Snape would rather be the biggest fish in his own small pond than a larger fish in a pond ruled by Voldemort.

The second reason is why I think Dumbledore trusted Snape to teach at Hogwarts. For all his personal unsavoriness, Snape would never recruit a student to be his lackey. He doesn't want a lackey, especially not after he turned coat against his own master. {wry chuckle, amused smile, GRIN}

Anne Elizabeth Baldwin

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From:rosamundeb
Date:August 13th, 2005 01:43 pm (UTC)
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"However, he has limits less penetrable than granite" Very well said! So what you're saying is that he has integrity... he may be nasty, sadistic, etc., but he has a certain code of honor that he follows.

Hmmmm.... I sort of agree. After all, there was the time he saved Harry from falling off of his broomstick - which was his way of re-paying James' deed of keeping him from falling prey to Lupin in his werewolf state, when Sirius lured him there as a joke. But what IS his code of honor, after all? He has no problem handing out points against Gryffindor for nothing at all, and he is a sadistic you-know-what. Other than the one episode I named, where have we seen him display a distinct code of honor?

As to the biggest fish... well, Snape reports to Dumbledore, doesn't he? (or he did) He's not exactly big fish, even in his own pond. And while he doesn't have lackeys, he certainly has favorites... and I certainly don't see him as a great role model for them! *L*!

He's an interesting character... and I love how Alan Rickman plays him. I think very few people could give him the intensity and, yes, charisma that Alan Rickman gives him. It makes you wonder what happened to turn the snivelly little boy into a rather dignified professor... and what the story behind his Death Eater experience is.

Which reminds me... obviously, at one point, he DID want to be a follower of Voldemort's. Now, why did he turn against being a Death Eater? Was it something he was asked to do that went against his own code? Did he do refuse to do it, and that's why Dumbledore trusts him? Or did he do it, and has bitterly regretted it since and vowed to make up for it, which is why Dumbledore trusts him? Hmmmm....
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From:aeb
Date:August 14th, 2005 09:53 am (UTC)
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"Integrity..." Thanks! I knew there were some words that fit better. That's definitely one of them! {BIG SMILE} Yes, as nasty and unsavory as Snape is, he has his own kind of integrity. {SMILE}

And I'm afraid the rest of my thoughts will have to wait. It's bed-time now. But I had to thank you first. {BIG SMILE, REALLY BIG GRIN}

Anne Elizabeth Baldwin
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From:aeb
Date:August 16th, 2005 09:17 am (UTC)
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I don't like Snape's code of honor, but I honestly believe he has one. {smile} I haven't really examined it beyond him not wanting either a superior or an inferior before. {pause} I think you have a point; he has helped Harry in Quidditch despite strongly disliking him… although after this last book, I wonder if repaying James for saving him from Lupin is the whole story there. {chuckle, Smile} Whatever it is, it seems to drive him to help Harry when not doing so could result in injury. It does not extend to house points or grades, tho... but then, those don't result in bodily harm. {Smile}

As a teacher, he does have to follow school policy, but he doesn't kowtow to Dumbledore. My sense of their relationship before #6 was that they tolerated each other, primarily because each felt that the others' personal code of ethics didn't quite cross into their own definition of "too far". For instance, Snape would help neither the last Voldemort nor the next one. Dumbledore, in turn, interferes very little with Snape's teaching and his running of his House, including his playing favorites most of the time. I hope that makes sense. {cross fingers, Smile}

I'd like to hear more about his death-eater experience, too. Somehow I think that was positively character shaping. {SMILE}

I love Alan Rickman's portrayal, too. Actually, his portrayal gave me the idea about Snape refusing to serve another as master. When I first saw him, I was by an "I am no man's servant" air about him. Then, when he took to Draco, it looked so clearly like he was choosing a protege, and most definitely not recruiting future help. {chuckle, SMILE}

As for what made him turn against Voldemort and Death Eaters... I think you have a point here. Somewhere along the line, Voldemort either dragged or pushed Snape too far. It made him rebel... and that rebellion stuck. I don't know whether he did it, or dug in his heels, but I bet you're right that it's why Dumbledore trusts him so. {SMILE}

Oh, and sorry I took so long to get back to this. Sundays are the busiest day at my house, so extra stuff almost never gets done then. {slightly apologetic SMILE}

Anne Elizabeth Baldwin
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From:ilthit
Date:August 10th, 2005 09:26 am (UTC)
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From:singeaddams
Date:August 10th, 2005 12:05 pm (UTC)
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From:fictualities
Date:August 10th, 2005 07:49 pm (UTC)
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Some very interesting HBP discussion by sarahtales here, by garlandgraves here, and by black_dog here. :)
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From:rosamundeb
Date:August 10th, 2005 08:11 pm (UTC)
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Many, many thanks! *S*
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